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	<title>Comments on: Change, Loss, and Sheet Music</title>
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	<description>Initiating a new Grassroots movement in downtown Vancouver</description>
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		<title>By: Wayne</title>
		<link>http://www.renovatus.com/rybee/2009/09/24/change-loss-and-sheet-music/comment-page-1/#comment-2969</link>
		<dc:creator>Wayne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Sep 2009 03:43:28 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Grappling with the Holy Spirit question is the more difficult one I agree but its because fruits are less visible than actions. I think we need to avoid making up a bunch of rules and checklists around &quot;though shall&quot; or &quot;shall not&quot; / confirmed or denied actions, for lots of reasons. Not that you seem to be saying that. I think God judges our hearts and intent but with grace rather than our actions on a checklist - just like Dads do with their kids, where they can. But it&#039;s not up to the kids to judge their sibblings, their role is to learn by doing the right things and develop a heart for goodness and God.  I shouldn&#039;t judge if my brother is following our father and if my father should reward him or not. I think that on this last point I could do better, understanding freedoms and grace can help, and parts of the CoC has been quite a bit off beam in the past, so changing that can be good. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Grappling with the Holy Spirit question is the more difficult one I agree but its because fruits are less visible than actions. I think we need to avoid making up a bunch of rules and checklists around &quot;though shall&quot; or &quot;shall not&quot; / confirmed or denied actions, for lots of reasons. Not that you seem to be saying that. I think God judges our hearts and intent but with grace rather than our actions on a checklist &#8211; just like Dads do with their kids, where they can. But it&#039;s not up to the kids to judge their sibblings, their role is to learn by doing the right things and develop a heart for goodness and God.  I shouldn&#039;t judge if my brother is following our father and if my father should reward him or not. I think that on this last point I could do better, understanding freedoms and grace can help, and parts of the CoC has been quite a bit off beam in the past, so changing that can be good.</p>
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		<title>By: Wayne</title>
		<link>http://www.renovatus.com/rybee/2009/09/24/change-loss-and-sheet-music/comment-page-1/#comment-2968</link>
		<dc:creator>Wayne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Sep 2009 01:11:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://renovatus.com/rybee/?p=961#comment-2968</guid>
		<description>very cool - I think that&#039;s it!  Its like in Romans 14 where their was tension because those who saw the freedom looked down on the others and those who saw the other side condemned the first group for being permissive. Its not about being more right or wrong in our itellectual interpretations- its about how we deal with it and live by the spirit. This means that God can be ok with both sides - the tension isn&#039;t from God its from the 2 camps condemning God&#039;s freedom or look down on others for not seeing things their way. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>very cool &#8211; I think that&#039;s it!  Its like in Romans 14 where their was tension because those who saw the freedom looked down on the others and those who saw the other side condemned the first group for being permissive. Its not about being more right or wrong in our itellectual interpretations- its about how we deal with it and live by the spirit. This means that God can be ok with both sides &#8211; the tension isn&#039;t from God its from the 2 camps condemning God&#039;s freedom or look down on others for not seeing things their way.</p>
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		<title>By: ryan</title>
		<link>http://www.renovatus.com/rybee/2009/09/24/change-loss-and-sheet-music/comment-page-1/#comment-2967</link>
		<dc:creator>ryan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Sep 2009 19:21:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://renovatus.com/rybee/?p=961#comment-2967</guid>
		<description>Brent, just to quickly comment on your last idea about &quot;tradition and relationship&quot; I may have spoke out of turn in saying that this was more of an emphasis in the nw than in the south. What I was basing that on and attempting to communicate is that in the South there tended to be more of an emphasis on knowing about Jesus whereas in the NW the emphasis is more on knowing Jesus. I don&#039;t say that to say that the NW is better  (and my observations could be incorrect anyway!) because both sides are hugely important. I recently asked a friend which of the Jesus stories was his favorite and he responded with a story about Moses (and no, he wasn&#039;t joking). 
 
I&#039;ve got to be honest though and say that I&#039;m not certain that asking questions about the interpretation of the silence of Scripture is very important. For example I&#039;ve been thinking recently about how all of our valued rules for understanding and defining doctrine would not have allowed Jesus to do what he did and would not have allowed the entrance of gentiles into the church. The clear, spoken, and understood doctrine of God&#039;s people was that to have relationship with the Lord you had to work within or in connection to the Jewish system. Additionally, there&#039;s no room for God to die in the jewish system (let alone on a tree!) What changed all this was the action of God. When Gentiles were filled with the Spirit, the Jewish community had to begin asking different questions concerning their theology. 
Anyway, I say all that to say that I think we&#039;d be better off in our churches if we spent time trying to help them see and experience the work of God. Is silence in Scripture prohibitive or permissive? My understanding is that it&#039;s a moot point because the better question is &quot;has God&#039;s Spirit confirmed or denied the direction you&#039;re moving&quot;. And while I realize this is a much harder question to answer, and while I realize that this brings up a whole new set of questions (how to you identify if the Spirit has confirmed something?), I think it&#039;s worth grappling with. 
 </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brent, just to quickly comment on your last idea about &quot;tradition and relationship&quot; I may have spoke out of turn in saying that this was more of an emphasis in the nw than in the south. What I was basing that on and attempting to communicate is that in the South there tended to be more of an emphasis on knowing about Jesus whereas in the NW the emphasis is more on knowing Jesus. I don&#039;t say that to say that the NW is better  (and my observations could be incorrect anyway!) because both sides are hugely important. I recently asked a friend which of the Jesus stories was his favorite and he responded with a story about Moses (and no, he wasn&#039;t joking). </p>
<p>I&#039;ve got to be honest though and say that I&#039;m not certain that asking questions about the interpretation of the silence of Scripture is very important. For example I&#039;ve been thinking recently about how all of our valued rules for understanding and defining doctrine would not have allowed Jesus to do what he did and would not have allowed the entrance of gentiles into the church. The clear, spoken, and understood doctrine of God&#039;s people was that to have relationship with the Lord you had to work within or in connection to the Jewish system. Additionally, there&#039;s no room for God to die in the jewish system (let alone on a tree!) What changed all this was the action of God. When Gentiles were filled with the Spirit, the Jewish community had to begin asking different questions concerning their theology.<br />
Anyway, I say all that to say that I think we&#039;d be better off in our churches if we spent time trying to help them see and experience the work of God. Is silence in Scripture prohibitive or permissive? My understanding is that it&#039;s a moot point because the better question is &quot;has God&#039;s Spirit confirmed or denied the direction you&#039;re moving&quot;. And while I realize this is a much harder question to answer, and while I realize that this brings up a whole new set of questions (how to you identify if the Spirit has confirmed something?), I think it&#039;s worth grappling with.</p>
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		<title>By: Wayne</title>
		<link>http://www.renovatus.com/rybee/2009/09/24/change-loss-and-sheet-music/comment-page-1/#comment-2966</link>
		<dc:creator>Wayne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Sep 2009 12:15:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://renovatus.com/rybee/?p=961#comment-2966</guid>
		<description>Ryan, We are also asking similar questions in our church in Australia. The church did spend a lot of effort studying the &#8220;what to do about silence&#8221; issue. Most eventually concluded that the bible is silent on silence. For a traditional CoC church, the effect was stunning. Most were a torn and hurt by the challenge &#8211; the mind realised freedoms and grace but hearts were troubled. Is this grieving loss or is it that it takes time for the heart to catch up to the mind? or are they the same thing? Sometimes we know we should change something but we can&#039;t seem to do it straight away and we struggle for a time until our heart is really engaged in the change (I think we process it until we are really ok with it and we e.g. can resolve how it can be that people who we trusted and we know and we love are not always right). I think this lag also happens with every big change from getting over addiction to Christian conversion. I think a partial answer (whether this is grieving or processing) is to give people time, not to wallow but to support each other in working together and try to bring love to a situation of hurting.  </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ryan, We are also asking similar questions in our church in Australia. The church did spend a lot of effort studying the &ldquo;what to do about silence&rdquo; issue. Most eventually concluded that the bible is silent on silence. For a traditional CoC church, the effect was stunning. Most were a torn and hurt by the challenge &ndash; the mind realised freedoms and grace but hearts were troubled. Is this grieving loss or is it that it takes time for the heart to catch up to the mind? or are they the same thing? Sometimes we know we should change something but we can&#039;t seem to do it straight away and we struggle for a time until our heart is really engaged in the change (I think we process it until we are really ok with it and we e.g. can resolve how it can be that people who we trusted and we know and we love are not always right). I think this lag also happens with every big change from getting over addiction to Christian conversion. I think a partial answer (whether this is grieving or processing) is to give people time, not to wallow but to support each other in working together and try to bring love to a situation of hurting.</p>
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		<title>By: Brent</title>
		<link>http://www.renovatus.com/rybee/2009/09/24/change-loss-and-sheet-music/comment-page-1/#comment-2965</link>
		<dc:creator>Brent</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Sep 2009 23:50:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://renovatus.com/rybee/?p=961#comment-2965</guid>
		<description>Sorry one last thought.  I think &quot;tradition and relationally&quot; focused churches are wide spread in America today it&#039;s not just a NW phenomenon.  Doctrine is not popular really anywhere.  But doctrine must be there or the church will go into whatever it believes enhances &quot;Tradition and relationships.&quot;  It becomes anthropocentric instead of theocentric.  Tradition and Relations are good, great even, but the current anti-intellectual cultural ideas have to be defeated.  Jesus said the Greatest command is to love God with all your heart, soul, and MIND.  Heart is not optional, neither is Mind.  The two are inseparable. 
 
lex orandi lex credendi (The rule of prayer is the the belief).  If its all about traditions and relationships then there will be big, huge problems to come.  Likewise if it&#039;s about doctine, same thing, big problems to come. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry one last thought.  I think &quot;tradition and relationally&quot; focused churches are wide spread in America today it&#039;s not just a NW phenomenon.  Doctrine is not popular really anywhere.  But doctrine must be there or the church will go into whatever it believes enhances &quot;Tradition and relationships.&quot;  It becomes anthropocentric instead of theocentric.  Tradition and Relations are good, great even, but the current anti-intellectual cultural ideas have to be defeated.  Jesus said the Greatest command is to love God with all your heart, soul, and MIND.  Heart is not optional, neither is Mind.  The two are inseparable. </p>
<p>lex orandi lex credendi (The rule of prayer is the the belief).  If its all about traditions and relationships then there will be big, huge problems to come.  Likewise if it&#039;s about doctine, same thing, big problems to come.</p>
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		<title>By: Brent</title>
		<link>http://www.renovatus.com/rybee/2009/09/24/change-loss-and-sheet-music/comment-page-1/#comment-2964</link>
		<dc:creator>Brent</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Sep 2009 23:37:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://renovatus.com/rybee/?p=961#comment-2964</guid>
		<description>Indeed, unfortunately the average congregant in any church be it Church of Christ, Baptist, or Methodist, etc typically has little idea why they worship the way the do.  I work in a Baptist Church and can assure you this is true there.  Perhaps more disturbing though is the few people who believe they do know why a congregation does what it does and they seek to prove their knowledge by pointing to a few scriptures, concluding with the thought &quot;God says it, I believe it, the finishes it.&quot;  These are often the most difficult people to have meaningful conversation with.  So I should be careful in presupposing I have it all figured out either.  The Great Tradition of Christianity is long and diverse and it takes deep long study to come to knowledge of &quot;why.&quot; 
Having said that the Regulative Principle is the articulation of scripture put forward by the reformers, specifically those of Calvin&#039;s persuasion, in opposition to Luther and the Catholics, stating that whatever is not specifically condoned by God for worship, is not acceptable in worship.  (You can of course look up the exact wording using google).  The Catholics said the opposite, &quot;Whatever is not condemned by God in worship is acceptable in worship.&quot;  Thus you can see the contrast. 
 
In order to proceed, Firstly the CofC should first determine if the Regulative Principle is a biblical understanding of scripture.  If so why?  (I would personally say it is Biblical) 
 
Secondly, if one agrees that the principle is Biblical, one must then figure out how to apply the regulative principle consistently (forget music as that is too hot a topic to be discussed objectively in the CofC). (Currently the CofC seems (from an outside perspective) to have a very inconsistent application of the Regulative Principle thus fueling the worship wars from within it&#039;s own ranks). Regardless, once one understands the principle and how to apply the principle consistently to less controversial issues then proceed to talk about how to apply these principles to music specifically.   
 
Even if you end up still not agreeing on music at least both sides should understand the basis for the decision and most likely realize that the biblical theology has not been over turned only the application.  This should allow for a grace based conclusion. 
 
But one thing that can not be ignored in the conclusion of any application of principle in worship is what are likely to be the long term ramifications for the change in worship.  In other words will this change in worship change doctrine long-term in an unintended way.  Mark 7 shows how a change in practice effected the doctrine of the Jews in an unintended way, so much so that Jesus has to correct them. 
 
So by introducing a cappella only how does that change doctrine? Likewise instruments or even 4 part harmony; how can adding these change doctrine long-term?  Either can be significant.  Then having assessed the ramifications (both good and bad) either live with the ramifications or mitigate the ramifications proceeding in grace. Likely you will have to do both.   
 
Personally I think the bigger question is what is the purpose of Sunday Service in the first place?  When that question is answered correctly the rest seems to fall in line.  Is their a biblical order, liturgy, to church?  I would argue there is supposed to be.  But both Baptist and Churches of Christ have a &quot;Free Church&quot; tradition which says &quot;no.&quot;  A position I don&#039;t think is defensible.  There is a biblical order to &quot;services.&quot; </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Indeed, unfortunately the average congregant in any church be it Church of Christ, Baptist, or Methodist, etc typically has little idea why they worship the way the do.  I work in a Baptist Church and can assure you this is true there.  Perhaps more disturbing though is the few people who believe they do know why a congregation does what it does and they seek to prove their knowledge by pointing to a few scriptures, concluding with the thought &quot;God says it, I believe it, the finishes it.&quot;  These are often the most difficult people to have meaningful conversation with.  So I should be careful in presupposing I have it all figured out either.  The Great Tradition of Christianity is long and diverse and it takes deep long study to come to knowledge of &quot;why.&quot;<br />
Having said that the Regulative Principle is the articulation of scripture put forward by the reformers, specifically those of Calvin&#039;s persuasion, in opposition to Luther and the Catholics, stating that whatever is not specifically condoned by God for worship, is not acceptable in worship.  (You can of course look up the exact wording using google).  The Catholics said the opposite, &quot;Whatever is not condemned by God in worship is acceptable in worship.&quot;  Thus you can see the contrast. </p>
<p>In order to proceed, Firstly the CofC should first determine if the Regulative Principle is a biblical understanding of scripture.  If so why?  (I would personally say it is Biblical) </p>
<p>Secondly, if one agrees that the principle is Biblical, one must then figure out how to apply the regulative principle consistently (forget music as that is too hot a topic to be discussed objectively in the CofC). (Currently the CofC seems (from an outside perspective) to have a very inconsistent application of the Regulative Principle thus fueling the worship wars from within it&#039;s own ranks). Regardless, once one understands the principle and how to apply the principle consistently to less controversial issues then proceed to talk about how to apply these principles to music specifically.   </p>
<p>Even if you end up still not agreeing on music at least both sides should understand the basis for the decision and most likely realize that the biblical theology has not been over turned only the application.  This should allow for a grace based conclusion. </p>
<p>But one thing that can not be ignored in the conclusion of any application of principle in worship is what are likely to be the long term ramifications for the change in worship.  In other words will this change in worship change doctrine long-term in an unintended way.  Mark 7 shows how a change in practice effected the doctrine of the Jews in an unintended way, so much so that Jesus has to correct them. </p>
<p>So by introducing a cappella only how does that change doctrine? Likewise instruments or even 4 part harmony; how can adding these change doctrine long-term?  Either can be significant.  Then having assessed the ramifications (both good and bad) either live with the ramifications or mitigate the ramifications proceeding in grace. Likely you will have to do both.   </p>
<p>Personally I think the bigger question is what is the purpose of Sunday Service in the first place?  When that question is answered correctly the rest seems to fall in line.  Is their a biblical order, liturgy, to church?  I would argue there is supposed to be.  But both Baptist and Churches of Christ have a &quot;Free Church&quot; tradition which says &quot;no.&quot;  A position I don&#039;t think is defensible.  There is a biblical order to &quot;services.&quot;</p>
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		<title>By: ryan</title>
		<link>http://www.renovatus.com/rybee/2009/09/24/change-loss-and-sheet-music/comment-page-1/#comment-2963</link>
		<dc:creator>ryan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Sep 2009 20:43:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://renovatus.com/rybee/?p=961#comment-2963</guid>
		<description>Hey Brent, thanks for your input! You&#039;re exactly right concerning the hidden foundations behind why the CofC do things the way they do. I&#039;ve always referred to it in terms of how we interpret the silence of Scripture. While I will not claim any sort of broad knowledge of the churches of Christ as a whole, my experience is that the average CofC-er sitting in a pew has no idea how to articulate why they worship the way they do. My thinking is that many of them could not articulate it as clearly as you did in your comment. In all my years of going to church I&#039;ve never, not once, heard a sermon or message that taught the Regulative Principle, nor have I ever heard a message teaching how we should or should not worship (with regard to mechanics). 
But being from the NW we are not as doctrinally focused as the Bible belt and other places. We tend to be more tradition and relationally focused than the south. 
I&#039;m wondering how all this affects the discussion. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey Brent, thanks for your input! You&#039;re exactly right concerning the hidden foundations behind why the CofC do things the way they do. I&#039;ve always referred to it in terms of how we interpret the silence of Scripture. While I will not claim any sort of broad knowledge of the churches of Christ as a whole, my experience is that the average CofC-er sitting in a pew has no idea how to articulate why they worship the way they do. My thinking is that many of them could not articulate it as clearly as you did in your comment. In all my years of going to church I&#039;ve never, not once, heard a sermon or message that taught the Regulative Principle, nor have I ever heard a message teaching how we should or should not worship (with regard to mechanics).<br />
But being from the NW we are not as doctrinally focused as the Bible belt and other places. We tend to be more tradition and relationally focused than the south.<br />
I&#039;m wondering how all this affects the discussion.</p>
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		<title>By: Brent</title>
		<link>http://www.renovatus.com/rybee/2009/09/24/change-loss-and-sheet-music/comment-page-1/#comment-2962</link>
		<dc:creator>Brent</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Sep 2009 00:18:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://renovatus.com/rybee/?p=961#comment-2962</guid>
		<description>I think the most appropriate question is how does the liturgy (order and means of doing something in service) effect that doctrinal confessions of the church.  Most protestants think &quot;it doesn&#039;t.&quot;  My doctrine determines my liturgy.  True it should.  But it works in reverse as well.  The deeper question is not really one musical form per se but rather how does giving up a particular form of music going to effect the doctrine of later generations? 
 
Specifically Churches of Christ while knowing it or not, have a puritan interpretation of the regulative principle of the Westminster Confession.  The Regulative Principle stating that which God does not specifically condone is not allowed in worship.  So I think the discussion about music is better talked about in  that context.  Are Churches giving up the Puritan interpretation of the Regulative Principle?  If so then what are they replacing it with?  Perhaps the older generations &amp; younger generations could have a more constructive conversation and come to some understanding if they first sought to understand  the theological context of the discussion instead of simply talking about particular genres of music.  </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the most appropriate question is how does the liturgy (order and means of doing something in service) effect that doctrinal confessions of the church.  Most protestants think &quot;it doesn&#039;t.&quot;  My doctrine determines my liturgy.  True it should.  But it works in reverse as well.  The deeper question is not really one musical form per se but rather how does giving up a particular form of music going to effect the doctrine of later generations? </p>
<p>Specifically Churches of Christ while knowing it or not, have a puritan interpretation of the regulative principle of the Westminster Confession.  The Regulative Principle stating that which God does not specifically condone is not allowed in worship.  So I think the discussion about music is better talked about in  that context.  Are Churches giving up the Puritan interpretation of the Regulative Principle?  If so then what are they replacing it with?  Perhaps the older generations &amp; younger generations could have a more constructive conversation and come to some understanding if they first sought to understand  the theological context of the discussion instead of simply talking about particular genres of music.</p>
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